In this 34-minute episode, host Rick Maher is joined by Beth Noveck, Chief Innovation Officer for Governor Phil Murphy in New Jersey and Chair of the Governor’s new Task Force on the Future of Work, and Dr. Carl Van Horn, Director and Distinguished Professor of Public Policy at the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University. Beth and Carl reveal why New Jersey has chosen to focus on preparing for the future of work, as well how the future of work could shape the future of New Jersey’s economy. Discover lessons and takeaways from their work so far, and what workforce professionals and educators can do to better prepare for future of work trends.
Beth Simone Noveck serves as the State of New Jersey’s first Chief Innovation Officer - a position she was appointed to by Governor Philip D. Murphy in August 2018. In this capacity, Dr. Noveck, a native of New Jersey, focuses on enhancing innovation in government and in the Garden State’s economy. Using better data, more collective intelligence and agile technology, her team leads projects, designs policies, and advises agencies on innovative strategies to improve the lives of New Jerseyans. Dr. Noveck serves as the Chair of the Governor’s Future of Work Task Force, sits on the Governor’s Jobs and Economic Opportunity Council, and is also a gubernatorial appointee on the New Jersey Commission on Science, Innovation, and Technology.
Carl Van Horn is Distinguished Professor of Public Policy at the Edward J. Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy and the founding Director of the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey (www.heldrich.rutgers.edu). He is an elected Fellow of the National Academy of Public Administration. Since 2013, he has been a Visiting, Non-Resident, Scholar with the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta. He is also Senior Advisor for Strategy and Planning in the Office of New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy.
Announcer: Welcome to Talent Talks. Each month human resources veteran, Rick Maher, welcomes America's thought leaders to discuss ways to reinvent America's talent development and education systems. Tune in and discover how we can drive global competitiveness for future generations. Talent Talks is presented by Maher & Maher and IMPAQ International, who together are delivering research and evidence-based solutions to workforce challenges. And now your host, Rick Maher.
Rick Maher: Well folks, welcome to Talent Talks. We so appreciate your taking the time to join us as we explore the world of talent development with some of our nation's most prominent experts. Today we continue what has been a series of podcast sessions exploring the future of work, a discussion about how AI, robotics, the internet of things and technology in general might reshape work in our future.
Rick Maher: Increasingly, we're seeing corporations and, frankly, states taking the lead in tackling this issue. And my home state, New Jersey, is among the first to step into this arena. So I'm thrilled to have two leaders from New Jersey's new task force on the future of work here with us today.
Rick Maher: Beth Noveck is Chief Innovation Officer for Governor Phil Murphy in New Jersey and Chair of the Governor's new task force on the Future of Work. She's joined today by Dr. Carl Van Horn, director and distinguished professor of public policy at the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University, whose team is serving to staff the task force and Beth's work with it.
Rick Maher: Folks, for us to have both of you here today is a great privilege for us, and we're just so thankful that you've been willing to share some of your journey with us and the work in New Jersey. I want to welcome you both to Talent Talks.
Beth Noveck: Thank you.
Carl Van Horn: Thanks, Rick, good to be with you.
Rick Maher: Yeah, Carl, great to be with you. Thanks so much. Beth, let me start with you. I think the work you're doing is so critically important. The future of work, depending on who you listen to, could be really the challenge of our times. Your work in New Jersey is among the first of the states to focus big time on this challenge. Tell me from your perspective, and I guess from the Governor's perspective, really, why are you focusing on the future of work, and why now Beth?
Beth Noveck: Thanks, Rick. So I think the important thing to recognize is the future is already here. It's already upon us as you've mentioned. We have technologies like automation, AI and its subfield, machine learning, that are replacing some jobs already and that have the potential for sure to transform most jobs and to create entirely new jobs that we haven't yet anticipated. And that creates challenges for workers. It also creates a lot of opportunities. New Jersey has very key industries like healthcare and pharmaceuticals, financial services, technology, manufacturing and a range of others that are going to all be significantly impacted and transformed by technology. And we really have to get ready for that.
Beth Noveck: I think importantly also to recognize, let me just add, is that even though unemployment is at its lowest level in a generation, what we're still seeing is very pernicious, kind of long-term, chronic unemployment. And what we're seeing is that those people who are unemployed are five times more likely to be living in poverty, in fact. So we want to be sure of as even as technology creates wonderful new opportunities, transformative new jobs, great new innovations, that we're making sure that everybody is brought along for this new future, and that we're preparing workers, that we're preparing the state, that we're preparing in how we train people in universities and in the private sector, that we're thinking about how we bring along everybody for this future prosperity, and thinking about what can be done both to stave off the challenges and the risks that come from technology, but also I hope we get more into this, take advantage of the opportunities that technology is creating to actually help us develop work that's both more plentiful and more meaningful for people.
Rick Maher: Yeah, and by the way, I appreciate you starting it this way because there are opportunities, and I think sometimes there's people so overwhelmed by the challenge itself and maybe even a little bit fearful, that we tend only to see the pain and not the pleasure that might be part of this journey. So if you could, I mean you've given us some insight already in your first answer, but just if you could articulate what is it that you as chair, and Carl, your team that's staffing this, and ultimately I guess, the governor's goal here. What is the mission of the task force? What is your end game? What are you supposed to be delivering as part of this process?
Beth Noveck: Yeah, so I'll be happy to start there, and let me say really at the outset how delighted we are, how lucky we are to have the support of Carl and his team at the Heldrich Center for workforce development at Rutgers in terms of bringing their long standing experience in understanding the labor market in New Jersey, in understanding these issues around the future of work, and really having deep insight into and access to the data that we need and that we need to share with others in order to answer these questions in a really empirical way. So we really couldn't do this without their expertise and their knowhow. And that combined the Heldrich Center folks, but also the 25 people we have on this task force who represent expertise not only within the state but around the world. We have a combination of members who are both domestic and who come from other states and other countries who are bringing to bear their expertise and learning and their concerns as we tackle these issues. And I should say importantly, as we move forward in our work in the task force, bringing in the insights and knowhow, not only at the 25 people in the room, but have workers in New Jersey of technologists, of other that are helping us to really understand this issue.
Beth Noveck: So very quickly, to answer your question, our goal first and foremost is to help develop really a playbook, if you will, to figure out what do we need to do first. And by we, I mean both the state, what the governor's office can do and the legislature can do in terms of policies that will respond to these challenges, take advantage of these opportunities. But as with any really thorny public problems, it can't be solved by one actor alone. So we're hoping also entering the process of developing recommendations for what our universities can do, what companies can be doing, also what we as individuals can be doing and the unions that represent many individual workers. But what we need to be doing ourselves to help prepare for this future of work. What we need to do at the most basic is to educate everybody a bit more, very concretely and specifically about what the challenges are, what the opportunities are, and what are essentially the plays in our playbook. What can we do about them concretely and immediately to better prepare for the future.
Rick Maher: Yeah, that's a mouthful and a lot of work. And I appreciate you giving us that kind of recap. And Carl, you got a really nice 30 second commercial there, but I know, having been around this workforce system for a long time, people certainly know your reputation and the reputation of the Heldrich Center. And this must be a real, I want to say it must be just an exciting opportunity for you. I mean, having been around the system and knowing it as you do and knowing its strengths and also its limitations and being in a position to help Beth and the governor and the rest of the leadership here in this state find a way to prepare for what's coming. I mean just speak to the role that the Heldrich Center is playing, your role, and give me a sense of what it's like for you to be behind the scenes and helping to make this process work.
Carl Van Horn: Well again, we're very honored and privileged to have the opportunity to work on this. I think to widen the lens a little bit, the context for this, as Beth said, the future work is already here. And the way I would translate that is rapid changes in the labor market have been occurring for a long time. They used to come in slower waves. Now I think they're coming much more rapidly. And frankly, the federal system by and large has been very, very slow to adjust to this. And that's a nonpartisan comment. It has nothing to do with party. Neither party has addressed this very well. And so as a result of that, you have literally millions of people who lost their jobs and essentially don't know how to reposition themselves in it. As Beth mentioned, there are a lot of people who are chronically unemployed, and some of that is for lack of the services that are needed for them to make that transition to the next opportunity. Clearly, whatever your view is of the future of work, the kinds of innovations that are happening right now, you'd have to conclude it's going to be change, and it's going to be more rapid change than we've experienced before.
Carl Van Horn: So while States are the ones that are at the front line, states and local communities, of actually helping people, if they're good at it, make these transitions, make these adjustments. They provide the services, the education and training, higher education, high schools, career technical education, county colleges and what not. And so that's why states are so important. Governor Murphy particularly has a view of this, which he expressed in his economic plan in October of 2018 when he announced the creation of this task force on the future of work that we as the state of New Jersey needed to be prepared to deal and help with our 9 million residents who will be experiencing this.
Carl Van Horn: And I think that's really why you're seeing other states also beginning to pay attention to this, partly because of the lack of action on the federal level, partly because the states really are the ones that have to do this job. So what we're trying to do with this task force is really drill into what can our population, our stakeholders, our education and training partners and so on, what can they do to answer these questions which are not going away. This isn't like the great recession, which eventually we recover from. This is the new normal, and we need different policies than we've had in the past.
Rick Maher: Absolutely. And I think when we talked in preparation for today, I may have mentioned to you guys as I started this series on the future of work, I went out and tried to read all the punditry I could to get a crib notes education at least, and to be able to at least have informed discussions with folks like you. And it occurs to me that there's punditry all over the place. There's some out there that think there's 350 million people that could be unemployed, and not just unemployed, but unemployable. And then there are others that think that's way overstatement, and there's nothing to see here. New jobs will be created, and everything will be fine. And then the middle ground is kind of like 15% of American workers may need to be retrained.
Rick Maher: And Carl, listening to your last point and with your knowledge of the system, but to both of you, even if that moderate view is what the future of work looks like here in New Jersey, that's a huge lift for a system, as you say, Carl, that at least from the federal level, is just not equipped to handle it. So and Beth, I think you mentioned the fact that you have business involved here. It occurs to me this has to be a real public private partnership if we're going to meet this challenge, even if the challenge is not the real Armageddon like punditry that you read out there.
Rick Maher: Talk to me. Where do you guys see the future of work in New Jersey? Where are you on that continuum? I get a sense from Beth's early answers, you're kind of like, you see major opportunity here, and it may be more than the kind of retraining challenge, but give me a sense, in the future of work in New Jersey, where are we on this continuum? Where do you guys sit in terms of the spectrum of punditry out there?
Carl Van Horn: Well, I'll start there. We're not anywhere on the spectrum of punditry, if I can leave myself out of that.
Rick Maher: Fair enough, Carl. Fair enough.
Carl Van Horn: What I would say is that New Jersey is a state that if people who, knowing New Jersey, we used to be a very central manufacturing state. We made automobiles. We built ships. We do [inaudible 00:00:12:14]. We don't do any of that anymore. We're much more of a high tech healthcare, retail logistics, transportation economy then we would've been 40 years ago. And so we have both the challenges and the opportunity that presents. We have a very well educated workforce, by and large. High number of people have not only college degrees but advanced degrees.
Carl Van Horn: But I think the key point, as we've alluded to before, is that there's really no sector of the world economy that isn't challenged by rapid change. So if you are a frontline worker providing healthcare services to individuals who are physically challenged, there are technology solutions that may eventually replace you. If you're a radiologist studying MRIs, you may also have an AI solution to what you do right now. So whenever it is, there are things that could displace you, are going to displace you, but that doesn't mean you're unemployable, or that you will be unemployed forever. The question is, how do you make that transition?
Carl Van Horn: And right now, again, most of our public policies oriented towards the first 20 some years of your life, on the assumption that for the next 50 to 60 years, you'll be just fine, or that the company will train you to make those changes. That's not true anymore. So that means people have to be, and again, it's not just government doing this, it's individuals being more resilient and nimble and us helping them as a government to make those changes and be more knowledgeable about this.
Carl Van Horn: So again, to me it doesn't really matter whether the change is 15% or 35%. it still is going to be a major challenge and is a challenge right now. And so we have to catch up. We have to catch up with this reality. And I think that's partly what this task force is trying to do for New Jerseys and we hope that it will be informative to other colleagues in other States and frankly to the national government as we confront this as a society.
Rick Maher: Yeah, that's awesome. Beth, anything to add to that? That's awesome.
Beth Noveck: Carl has made so many important points. I could pick up on too many things to respond to there for us to agree. And to your earlier point, I think you're right that plenty of consultants are making their living making predictions one way or another about the end of times or the best of time. And the answer is partly really, it depends who you are and where you sit.
Beth Noveck: To Carl's point, every job is going to be transformed. So the kind of stereotype or the thing that some people think that this is just about kind of routine, sort of factory based labor that will be upset by new technologies, not at all the case. So if you're that radiologist reading MRIs, you may still have a job as a radiologist, but it's going to be a piece of AI and machine learning that will do a much better job of spotting, we already have the tools for this now, identifying the black dot that is skin cancer and distinguishing that from the black dot that is just a black dot. So every job is going to see itself transformed in one way or another.
Beth Noveck: And the big question really is going to be how we respond to this for different people in different sectors. And that's why we have to have this task force at the state level and have to be doing a lot at the state level to look very specifically at our economy, at our industries to understand what are these sectors and what it is that we can do, starting very much with thinking about some of the training issues that Carl really raised about making sure that starting with education at the earliest ages, but then going on from there that we recognize that people need no longer to just get a degree or an advanced degree, but to engage in lifelong learning and training.
Beth Noveck: And that's why there's a big focus now on, in the governor, for example, his Jobs NJ plan, which came out just last week, expanding the number of post-secondary credentials that all people are getting, making sure that across all counties we're bringing up that number to 45% to ensure that minority groups, Latinx, African American, Native Americans, we're making a special push to get additional post-secondary credentials.
Beth Noveck: But they were also thinking about what are the policies that we need to put in place beyond that to enable people to have access to, to able to afford and to be able to know about post-secondary training opportunities. A lot of this is really about matching demand to supply, making sure that we have workers with the right skills in the right place at the right time to meet the needs of employers that have jobs available, and that we're communicating what those skills are that are needed, what they are that are going to be needed in the future, and how we match the two, one to another.
Rick Maher: Yeah. Amazing. And I know that you are tuned into it, and I want to get to this next question. I think I'll lead into it by saying all of what I heard from both of you is so important, and I'm really proud of my state and of the two of you, frankly, that you're out in front of this. I mean, as I talk to people around this subject, in both government and the private sector and just the local elected officials even, what concerns me most is that chronically unemployed or even, dare we say, underemployed population, Beth, that could be really left behind. We could lose a lot of people if we're not really thinking ahead of the curve and finding those people and getting them engaged in some forms of job retraining to kind of keep them from falling off the radar. And the new program you mentioned to the governor, it sounds like it's kind of tilted in that direction. That's awesome. And you know, you talked about, Carl alluded to it, you use the word lifelong learner, and the fact that we've got to get away from the fact that we think our education is 20 years of our life, and the rest of the world we coast.
Rick Maher: I noticed when I looked at the depth and breadth and the diversity of your membership on this task force that you guys are thinking about all those issues that obviously by just the depth of the folks that I see represented. I mean you've got government, you've got business, you've got organized labor, you've got business leaders, you've got workers represented. One of the things I was really impressed with too is you've got obviously educational partners, things like a Carl Van Horn or Rutgers University, but I noticed also I think you've got one of the major [inaudible 00:18:37] providers. I don't know if it was edX I think is on there. And I notice you have LinkedIn, I think, represented on the task force. That's really out of the box thinking, if you don't mind me saying so, guys, for government. Can you speak to the breadth of diversity of this task force? And I know it's taken you, Beth and Carl, while they stand this up. Talk to us about that journey and how you wound up with a group this diverse, and frankly, representing a new and different kinds of interests than I've seen historically represented on kind of government panels like this. Talk to us about how you assembled this group.
Beth Noveck: So I'm glad that you pointed this out, and it's something that I'm very proud of. It did take us longer as a result to convene the group and put them together and get everybody signed up and signed up to be part of it. But we can't talk about the impact of technology on the future of work without having some people who know something about technology. At the same time, as you can see, it's not just a group of technologists, computer scientists or data scientists. We obviously need to keep the worker front and center and have people who think about and are workers and represent workers as part of the task force. We need economists and those who understand the intersection between these questions and what the impact will be across industries, and then educators and pedagogues who were thinking about these questions of lifelong learning and training because we very much want to come up with a set of activities, not just recommendations, but actions at the end of this that include the usual kinds of policy prescriptions. And by usual, I mean the task forces often come up with you should enact this policy or create this law.
Beth Noveck: But besides that, we know that there's a lot we can do very concretely and specifically with regard to using new technologies. So you talk about an edX platform or a LinkedIn platform, there are ways that they can actually help to address some of these challenges like matching demand to supply, providing lifelong training to people. And we want to be thinking again really concretely about what we can do now, not just down the line, in very, very direct ways.
Beth Noveck: And I'll just mention one other thing that I alluded to before, which is to take advantage of the new technology as we will be doing in the next couple of weeks, to actually reach out directly to workers and make sure that this conversation includes a much broader array of actors, that we're not just talking about what the average working person needs and wants, but talking to people in different industries about their own perceptions of their own fears, their own optimism about the future of work.
Rick Maher: Yeah, that's great.
Carl Van Horn: Should I just jump in and add to that and echo some of Beth said already, but it's very important to... Reason that organized labor is so important at this is because in our history, and actually worldwide, organized labor has helped set the standard for what is a good quality job. And that is what a lot of people want. They want stability, they want predictability, they want benefits, they want a safe working place. And yet much of that in our workplaces around the country, around the world, that's declining. And so we want to be also thinking about not just a job, but a good job, a quality job, one that you can support your family, one that you can advance in. And so that's partly why having diversity, this perspective and a sense of what is the possible should be in this conversation.
Carl Van Horn: Another point is that this also is about communicating to the public, raising awareness. So it's not just a government task. It is individuals and families that have to be thinking about this. So to give you one data point, there are about a million people in New Jersey right now in a state of 9 million that have some form of post-secondary education but have no credential. Now that is not a failure of them because life happens to people. They get diverted on that path. But it is an opportunity to help those people get a credential is going to help them get a good job or to finish that degree or whatever it is.
Carl Van Horn: It's also about raising awareness and publicizing this. And I wouldn't put it either as a challenge or opportunity. It's an imperative. It's really something that if our society is going to move ahead of those families, and those individuals are going to succeed economically and personally, we have to help them get the education that they need and finish the education they have too so they can go ahead.
Carl Van Horn: And so the governor's already taken steps in that direction. One is it's called the Community College Opportunity Grant Program, which is in other states, it's sometimes called the Promise Program, whatever. But the point is to buy support, tuition support for those adults who may have left college two years ago, 10 years ago, to come back tuition free to finish that degree so that they can be prepared. And in many ways it also increases their ability to know how to learn. So it isn't just the degree or the credential they're getting, but it's giving them, equipping them with the ability to keep learning, which is what they're going to have to do throughout their working career.
Rick Maher: Carl, that's important and a great add. Not to get too down into the weeds, but it occurs to me that for some of the folks with the most barriers, solutions like work and learn, the granddaddy of which or the Cadillac of which is apprenticeship, is probably part of the mix too. Because some of these folks just need to have a paycheck while they're going to school or while they're learning. And let's face it, organized labor in New Jersey has a history of doing that kind of stuff pretty well.
Carl Van Horn: Just so we don't lose that point, as Beth alluded to, Jobs New Jersey, which people can go on the governor's website and look into that in more detail, but essentially it significantly calls for an increase, not only in apprenticeships, but also in other work based learning, on the job training, also credits for prior learning experiences. So, in other words, other good ways to help people, not necessarily return to the classroom or even take a course online, but actually go back into the workplace and work with an employer who needs better trained workers, and they'll take that person and help them train up to where they need to be. And this is also going to be, I think in the future, part of increasingly a partnership between, shall we say, the individual learner, the business and government agencies to get the person to a higher credential.
Rick Maher: Yeah, no, that's absolutely great. And you guys seem to be doing an awful lot of things right. And that leads me to this. I think one of you, the governor called for the task force in the fall of 2018. And Beth shared the journey really to get this diverse a group assembled. And it is a pretty impressive group of folks. But now I understand you've done it. I believe you've had at least a meeting, maybe more. So I guess everything is now done, and you guys are both ready to take vacation. Everything is by now we're all ready. But seriously, you're in a mix now. Beth, any early learnings? Give us a quick peek at how things are going since you've got this thing underway.
Beth Noveck: Yes. Well, hate to disappoint that we haven't solved all the problems of the world in a meeting or two. So a couple of quick reflections. I mean, one of course I think what has been really both important and also a challenge is to bring together people with these very diverse perspectives, learnings and priorities. That's been the great things to get a lot of great ideas out on the table. I mean our initial first two meetings have really focused on broadening our view rather than narrowing it, getting out a whole lot of ideas, looking at what's worked elsewhere, thanks to the great suggestions we've gotten from the task force, as well as work that's been done by the staff supporting the task force, we've been able to put together a catalog of innovations in this space of future of work and make that available online not only to the task force but to the wider world so that we have really a menu of options to work from. I think that's one important thing.
Beth Noveck: I think the second thing is then really sort of focusing in on three areas. The first of those is really making sure that we are protecting the rights of workers in the work that we do, that we're really trying to safeguard the traditional rights that accrue to workers in the workplace. That includes the benefits to which they're entitled, and that we're looking at how new technology can threaten access to those benefits. You may have seen that legislation that was signed not too long ago, I think it was just last week, to actually protect and ensure that people who are participating in what's sometimes called the digital platform economy or the gig economy, but also people who are working freelance, new nontraditional forms of workers, that they have access to benefits that allow them to be, as Carl said, not only workers but good workers who are able to feed their families and to buy the goods that they produce.
Beth Noveck: The second thing is that we're very much focused on worker health and safety. And that's an area in which technology creates both risks in terms of things like worker surveillance, worker privacy that a lot of us are worried about, but at the same time also tremendous new potential benefits to create greater transparency and protect people on the job that we want to make sure to take advantage of. If you think about the idea of new kinds of sensors, even sensors in your pocket like your phone that can do things like be used to track air quality, that can be used to track stress levels, that can be used to track medical conditions. So again, these are two sided swords. There are risks, but there are also benefits that we want to look at how to take advantage of.
Beth Noveck: And finally to come back to the issue that we've both been touching on, which is the area of lifelong learning and up-skilling and this question of how do we ensure that people have access to work-based and lifelong learning opportunities? How do we again take advantage of technology to make those opportunities available, accessible and affordable to people? So always looking at this kind of twin risk and opportunity question, what are the risks of technology, but then how do we use technology to create work that's safer, more plentiful? And importantly, I think also more engaging for people. And that, I just want to signal as an important issue here is that most people around the world, when you ask them, when all the surveys say that most people are very disengaged at work, they don't like work very much. I think there's a lot of opportunities here also to think about how do we use technology to create more community, to create a greater sense of worker voice, to enable collective action and opportunities for people to feel engaged in terms of their rights and their voice at work, but also to enjoy their work more by eliminating a lot of the drudgery and creating new opportunities for challenge.
Rick Maher: Beth, I love that. And there's an optimism in that message. And I love these three, I'll use the words, very high tech, I guess, buckets that you've divided your work into. I mean, it's a way to organize it. It's comprehensive, and it touches on really key elements here. I mean there is, Carl used the word new normal, and the gig economy is the new normal. So these people have to be engaged and thought of as not just a part of this future work, but frankly a pretty important and growing segment of the future of work.
Rick Maher: So again, you guys seem to have, I don't want to say this all figured out. I know you're getting started, but I love the fact that you've made progress. And I so appreciate what you've done here in New Jersey.
Rick Maher: Well again, you're just amazing. We so much appreciate you. And I was going to ask a question. I think Carl raised it, and Beth, you did too when you mentioned these catalog of assets. I mean it occurs to me as you know, I did a session with Washington State a couple months ago. I know from talking to Carl, he's been tracking their progress and leveraged what you could from there. You guys are now adding a whole nother dimension of knowledge that you've assembled, collected, and put together that I think states that follow you could use. And I know our listeners are going to want to get access to what you've learned, shorten their learning curve, frankly, and continue to follow your progress and see you through to completion. So again, I want to thank you for your time and your talent, and I know you're both super busy, so this is a great investment on your part. How can our listeners get a return on this investment, your investment today? How can they follow your experience and stay in touch with what's going on in New Jersey's future of work task force?
Beth Noveck: So for my part, let me point people to innovation.nj.gov which is the website for the office of innovation for the state of New Jersey. That's innovation.nj.gov. And there are pointers on the homepage there to the future of work task force that includes discussions about our work, some of the background research that's been done. You'll be able to find from there the public consultations and engagement that we're going to be doing and the work of the task force along with that catalog, as well as some of the work that we're doing around the future of work in the public sector, as well as in the private sector, another issue we can save for another day. But everything that we're working on is up there. innovation.nj.gov
Rick Maher: Awesome. Carl, anything to add to that?
Carl Van Horn: No, I think you can find most of what's relevant with our conversation there. You can also go on the state's official website, jobs.gov New Jersey and find more about the governor's economic plan and the Jobs New Jersey that was recently announced that I alluded to earlier. If you're interested in the work at the Heldrich Center, which we certainly welcome at heldrich.rutgers.edu, heldrich.rutgers.edu. And you can find our research and other strategies, programs that we're working on there.
Rick Maher: Well, again guys, Beth and Carl, thank you for your pioneering role here in New Jersey and for your willingness to help us advance what I think is just a critically important discussion. I know our listeners will benefit from this chance to hear about your efforts. And I wish you just continued success and Godspeed as you continue this work on behalf of all the workers and businesses in this state. And thanks so much again for your time and your talent today.
Beth Noveck: Rick, thanks for having us.
Carl Van Horn: Thank you, Rick.
Rick Maher: It's been my pleasure.
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