Reshaping Education For the Workforce of Tomorrow, Beyond The “Carnegie Unit” | Maher & Maher
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Reshaping Education For the Workforce of Tomorrow, Beyond The “Carnegie Unit”

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In this 30-minute episode, host Rick Maher is joined by Dr. Ken Ender, President of William Rainey Harper College and Co-Chair of the Board of Directors of the Chicago/Cook Workforce Development Board. Dr. Ender explains how the “Carnegie Unit” became the standard for packaging and delivering learning, and how that model can now be a barrier for the educational needs of the 21st century. Discover the disruption that is occurring in the education industry and what workforce is asking of the educational system. Dr. Ender also shares the importance of public-private partnerships and the key features of a disruptive public education system of the future.

Episode Guest List:

Bio image of Dr. Ken EnderDr. Ken Ender is the President of William Rainey Harper College, a large community college located outside of Chicago, Illinois. Through partnerships and alliances, Dr. Ender has positioned Harper as a leading 21st-century community college by increasing graduation, transfer and certificate completion rates, aligning Harper's curriculum with high schools, training students for new economy jobs, and implementing new accountability and transparency standards. Since coming to Harper in 2009, Harper has experienced record graduation rates and a dramatic increase in the number of students who come to Harper college-ready. The College has also formed new alliances with businesses to fill the shortage of skilled workers in key industries.

Before coming to Harper, Dr. Ender served as President of Cumberland County College in New Jersey for eleven years. Previously, Dr. Ender held a variety of positions in higher education, including Vice President for Academic Affairs at Richland Community College, Interim District Dean at Cuyahoga Community College, Associate Vice President for Administrative Services at Cleveland State University, Director of Student Activities at Virginia Commonwealth University, and Director of Student Advising at University of Georgia.

You can connect with Dr. Ender via email at

Full Transcript of this episode:

Announcer:      00:02   Welcome to Talent Talks. Each month, human resources veteran Rick Maher welcomes America's thought leaders to discuss ways to reinvent America's talent development and education systems. Tune in and discover how we can drive global competitiveness for future generations. Talent Talks is presented by Maher & Maher and Impact International, who together are delivering research and evidence-based solutions to workforce challenges. Now your host, Rick Maher.

Rick Maher:     00:34   Well thanks for joining us today on Talent Talks as we explore the world of talent development with another of our nation's most prominent thought leaders, this time from the educational system. Today's guest is Doctor Ken Ender. Ken is the president of William Rainey Harper College outside Chicago, Illinois. He's a PhD from Virginia Commonwealth University and holds a master’s degree in education from the University of Georgia. He's formerly the president of Cumberland County College here in New Jersey where he and I first met and also formerly a member of the American Association of Community Colleges Board of Directors. He's co-chair of the Board of Directors of the Chicago Workforce Development Board. I just know Ken as a real innovator. He's built strong partnerships with business. He's been innovative in his service delivery as exemplified by some of the great work our listeners may have heard about that Harper has done is expanding apprenticeships. I've known him as a client, a colleague, a friend, a national speaker at conferences, who always seems to push the conversation forward. Ken, thanks so much for joining us today on Talent Talks.

Ken Ender:       01:45   Well, it's a real pleasure, Rick. Thank you.

Rick Maher:     01:47   Ken, you know I've witnessed your leadership now over a career, I guess we'd have to say, and know you to be an innovator, someone who does tend to push the envelope and no real friend of the status quo, I guess I'd say. We've had more than a few conversations about how the educational system needs to change to keep us with the demands of the global economy. In most of these conversations you talk about the way the Carnegie unit holds us back in terms of reform. Can you help our listeners understand that issue a bit, Ken? What is the Carnegie unit, and does it still serve our purpose today, do you think, in the United States educational system?

Ken Ender:       02:34   Well, in the sense that it was never created to support a measure of learning. It doesn't support that purpose at all. In fact, your listeners ... some might be surprised to know that the Carnegie unit was early used as a basis for determining retirement eligibility for faculty members at the Carnegie Institute many, many years ago. Somehow, that turned into becoming the prime tool for packaging and distributing credit instruction across our country. For a hundred years now, we have packaged learning in terms of numbers of hours a student sits in a seat, aligned it with a course that typically was worth three credits-

Rick Maher:     03:21   Yep.

Ken Ender:       03:21   Those credits were assessed by the faculty members and represented for the faculty member who did the assessment learning had taken place. We use that as a way in which we then could distribute, through the transfer system, learning from one institution to another. We've also used it as a way of distributing financial support to students through our Title IV dollars.

Rick Maher:     03:45   Right.

Ken Ender:       03:45   The Carnegie unit really represents the total sum of how, formally, in education, we package and distribute learning.

Rick Maher:     03:54   I keep reading about the so-called age of disruption. I'm sure you've heard that term being bandied about. Uber has disrupted transportation. Amazon is really disrupting the retail industry. I'm curious, Ken, is the U.S. educational system right for disruption in your view?

Ken Ender:       04:15   Oh, I think it's already occurring in a fairly large scale. I think the underpinnings of that is that we now recognize, I think, at least most policy makers, thought leaders across the country, understand that the knowledge economy that we're in now demands that every worker-learner in our country acquire talent that is typically acquired post-secondary degree. So, must do something beyond high school-

Rick Maher:     04:45   Right.

Ken Ender:       04:45   In order to align one's self with skills and attributes that an employer is looking for. In that context, if you accept the premise that it's really pretty much impossible to live a middle-class lifestyle in our country without post-secondary learning and credentialing, then we got to ... we've got to get to a scale of output, productivity, if you will, of talent development in the country that we've never, ever, been asked to get to before.

Rick Maher:     05:14   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       05:15   That, in itself, is a huge disruption. What you've seen is a lot of third-party players coming into the industry and disrupting the heck out of the more-

Rick Maher:     05:25   Yep.

Ken Ender:       05:25   Stayed, traditional institutions of post-secondary learning. You see learning now being mounted on different platforms. Distance education as opposed to face-to-face, competency-based education ... giving credit for prior learning, none of that aligns easily or fits nicely into the box of a credit hour.

Rick Maher:     05:51   Right.

Ken Ender:       05:52   We're having a heck of a time in this country trying to figure out a way to make this shift possible, make resources available to support this new learning in ways in which we haven't historically been asked to do. It's in a ... disruption is going on a huge scale. You're seeing a lot of new players in the market. You're seeing some traditional folks moving ... who actually just fold in their tents and go on away. Intuitions like my own, we're all struggling for ways ... find ways, find partners that can help us in the new marketplace of talent development.

Rick Maher:     06:25   It's interesting that you use the word partners. You know, it seems like the educational system has a bureaucracy built around it that makes it hard to be as nimble as you'd like to be, despite your best intentions. It's interesting. Yet, you are all out there trying to find the right new path, right, and figure out how to get to it. Maybe, in some cases, it means having to partner with others as opposed to doing things by yourself. Does that make sense?

Ken Ender:       06:58   Oh, sure. In the public sector, I think that any right-thinking leader in this sector understands that there's no new ... there's no more money coming.

Rick Maher:     07:07   Right.

Ken Ender:       07:08   We might get ... it might be a sum zero game in terms of total dollars allocated through ... when you look at inflation. There's no new money.

Rick Maher:     07:16   Right.

Ken Ender:       07:16   To get to a scale that we've never been at before with no new money, it, by definition-

Rick Maher:     07:21   Right.

Ken Ender:       07:22   Requires you do something different than you've historically done. Quite frankly, I still think there's plenty of financial resources in the system, the larger system of education and workforce development, but it's used very inefficiently. It's not connected well, if at all. That's where the partnerships have to get connected.

Rick Maher:     07:42   One of the reasons I love talking to you, Ken, is you have embraced the workforce side. I know that that means that sometimes you've had great successes and probably at other times you've had some frustrations, but you sit on your local workforce investment board. You [inaudible 00:07:59] your institution both as a liberal arts institution and also as one that needs to be really connected and driven by the talent needs required in the workforce of growth industries in your region. I think you get it and you see the whole picture as opposed to seeing it from just one of the silos.

Rick Maher:     08:21   I think to get us to the next place ... I mean, any time when I'm talking to leaders in government or business about the future or the age of disruption and where we're headed, it helps me and I always advise it helps everyone to start first with trying to get a clearer picture of, "What's the future that you're trying to achieve look like?" Not worry so much about the minutia and how to get there yet but get a clear picture of where you'd like to be. I'm just curious, assuming ... this puts you on the spot a little bit, but you're a big thinker and I know you can handle. If we assume that you could reimagine the U. S. educational system for this age of disruption, if you would, free ourselves from the focus on seat time, what might a disrupted system of the future look like? How would that system change in your view, Ken?

Ken Ender:       09:14   Right. I've actually done a little bit of thinking about this, just enough probably to be dangerous.

Rick Maher:     09:20   Good.

Ken Ender:       09:20   I try to push my own boundaries and my own thinking about what that might look like. I am very attracted to thinking through the lens of a collective impact model. I bring that sort of construct to my thinking about what a future public education system might look like.

Rick Maher:     09:38   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       09:39   The future that I think will emerge, either because we're going to be pushed by competitors or because we just finally recognize there's no more money ... no money there in terms of financial resources and we figured out a way to get connected is I envision a system that regionally connects the resources, time and talent and financial resources, of public sector educators, think K through 20, think the Kindergarten through the senior year of your local regional university connected to the school districts, the community colleges, and anchored by that regional institution and supported with, in the collective impact model, with economic development and workforce-

Rick Maher:     10:32   Right.

Ken Ender:       10:33   Providers that provide information to the system-

Rick Maher:     10:37   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       10:38   All supported through an electric backbone that is probably provided by a third-party service provider, might even be a for-profit service provider, that really lets the system focus on a lifetime of credentialing and a lifetime of really understanding each learner and who they are in the system in a more aggregated way than the disaggregated hand offs that we currently do.

Rick Maher:     11:00   Right.

Ken Ender:       11:01   I see that system. It's not hard to imagine it. It really isn't. What we know ... what we can do with electronic connection today and with support systems that can operate 24/7 from anywhere, then you can think about a young elementary school child working through a system, through a [inaudible 00:11:22] through their entire lifetime of a work life, always aligned with a credentialing system that's provided the skills to the individual through maybe face-to-face when they got started, but certainly as they get through their first phase of their career, it's all going to be done in some distance manner or we're going to provide more credentials because you've acquired your talent through some other means-

Rick Maher:     11:55   On the job training, on the job learning, if you will. Yeah.

Ken Ender:       11:58   Exactly. Exactly.

Rick Maher:     11:59   Yep.

Ken Ender:       12:00   I think about taking the best resources of community colleges, regional institutions and local educational systems to form some sort of, if you will, “commun-iversity” system that is ... it is public. It is supported by a third-party service provider with electronic backbone and it's highly connected to the workforce and economic development folks that work in that particular region. I can just so easily see that coming.

Rick Maher:     12:30   You know, Ken, it makes sense and that is out of the box amazing. You can see, you're right. You can see where there could be the ability to manage individuals and it is time for ... whether that's the right answer, Ken, or not, that's [inaudible 00:12:47] thinking that I love to hear and that's the reason we're here is to push people to take an idea like that, pull it apart and put it back together, refine it. I know you've been doing some work in these kinds of things, too. You shared with me that you're on the board of another school, another college I guess, that is doing a lot of innovative distance learning stuff now. Can you share some of that with us?

Ken Ender:       13:11   Yeah. I'm working with ... as a public member for a private board that has 32 institutions around the ... sites around the country. They have literally been able to package all of their learning outcomes through credit hour, through distance education, through competency-based education, and they're looking very hard at how they can provide credit for prior learning. They're working really hard with the federal government to become experimental sites around the Title IV dollars, because that's so critical to unlocking those dollars from the Carnegie unit-

Rick Maher:     13:48   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       13:49   So that we can have more experimentation. I personally am a part of another board that just represents the school districts in my community college. The leaders from these institutions have come together to form what we call the Northwest Council For Student Success. It's a collective impact organization that supports freshman through the sophomore year of college with a pre-collegiate curriculum that they are provided incentives through a promise type program to stay on a regular curriculum and they come to the college with no learning needs with respect to math and English. They also have the opportunity to learn ... we call it the power of fifteen, where we are focused on making sure every high school student earns 15 hours of college credit, get an early start towards their degree. This is a real good example of some of what a community ... “communi-versity” would have in its system.

Rick Maher:     14:52   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       14:54   I just ... we've now connected this to a university center with three university partners. We're now better able to align the curriculum and transfer becomes much less of a hand off and much more like a seamless experience as you go through your career.

Announcer:      15:13   You're listening to Talent Talks, presented by Maher & Maher and Impact International, who together provide research and evidence-based solutions integral to planning, developing, and managing America's workforce development system. For more information on what is being done to position America's workers, employers, and communities for future prosperity, sign up for our newsletter at That's

Rick Maher:     15:48   We're talking about aligning, as you say, K through 20 and kind of lifetime learning and yet, we ... you are now running, I think one of the ... I know one of the larger community colleges in Illinois, maybe among the largest in the country, right?

Ken Ender:       16:04   Well, certainly in Illinois.

Rick Maher:     16:06   Okay. I don't have to tell you that the community college system, with all of its advantages in terms of access and educational assets that are distributed in communities all around the country, despite all those assets, has historically a pretty low completion rate. I'm wondering, in your future vision, how might a reform system help to improve outcomes do you think?

Ken Ender:       16:30   Well, this ... there's two huge barriers to completion among community college students. Probably the biggest barrier is that many come to the community college without post-secondary readiness.

Rick Maher:     16:46   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       16:48   If they, in any way, are funneled into a traditional developmental education program, remedial program, those students are pretty much lost in the system. Part of the reform that's gone on is doing away with that type of remediation and finding a way to bring folks up to collegiate level through taking collegiate courses that are supported with English and mathematics support added to the course.

Rick Maher:     17:15   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       17:17   It's supplemental. It would be supplemental support as the students going through the credit course. We're seeing that to be a huge advantage for these students in terms of getting to the next rung. The second major issue for community college students is, frankly, they tend to live ... school is a part of their life. It's not their life. They're not going to community college as a coming of age experience as some of us might've done when we went to university.

Rick Maher:     17:43   Right.

Ken Ender:       17:43   They're going to community college as a part of life. We just really don't have good support systems for many of these students. We frankly have low expectations for lots of these students. We, as a system, have got to become, I think, a lot better at being able to understand who these folks are and align services to them. All that being said, it'd be a heck of a lot easier to do if we were understanding these students before they got to these institutions.

Rick Maher:     18:11   Right.

Ken Ender:       18:12   That's why I think the relationship and the connection and the partnership between secondary and post-secondary, particularly community college and local public high schools is so important. We're literally working with these same students when they're 10th, 11th, and 12th graders. They're not new to us. They're just part of who we are as a service community. That's why I think our collective impact model really would help us think very differently about who our students are, when we need to start paying attention to them, how we can support them early on in their educational careers, so they'll be ready when the courses they need to take, they take.

Rick Maher:     18:47   That makes so much sense. What ... I've been around community colleges not as much as you, but quite frequently over the course of my career. That student success component is one that we've been struggling with. It makes complete sense, Ken, that the earlier you engage, the better off, the better chances you have of making the kid feel comfortable and engage themselves. That makes great sense to me. Yet, we're talking about kids and the truth is, your customer's changing, right? They're not all high school.

Ken Ender:       19:19   Oh, absolutely. No. I think ... we've got better ... I, as a professional, have a better understanding of how we can improve the learning experience and the learning outcomes for our traditional students much better than I understand how to propose change for our adult learners who need to access the same talent development system. That's why I think we've got to think about the system that we mount as one that's something much more than a traditional face time, seat time, for our populous because many of the adults that need us now, their personal architecture won't allow them with our architecture.

Rick Maher:     20:03   Right.

Ken Ender:       20:03   Someone is going to provide a platform for them. Southern New Jersey ... sorry. Southern New Hampshire University and their competency-based education-

Rick Maher:     20:14   Yeah. They're doing a great job.

Ken Ender:       20:14   They're doing a fantastic job.

Rick Maher:     20:15   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       20:15   The president there he's a real ... he's just ... he's a real champion particularly for under serviced students. He's just done a great job there. Now, you're going to see more of that develop because that's where, frankly, that's where the revenue will be found to build systems big enough that can support, at scale, what we need to be doing. Southern New Hampshire is at a huge scale and they'll get bigger.

Rick Maher:     20:41   Yeah. That's where the customer is. Like you say, the customer isn't built around seat time and when they say they need it now, they don't mean the semester starting in September.

Ken Ender:       20:55   Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

Rick Maher:     20:55   Yeah. [crosstalk 00:20:55]

Ken Ender:       20:55   Yeah.

Rick Maher:     20:55   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       20:56   At a minimum, I think that you find a lot of the new providers provide a monthly start at a minimum. The first day of each month is a start, is a new start.

Rick Maher:     21:07   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       21:07   Now, none of that is aligned with the calendars that the federal government would like for us to have and we distribute financial aid dollars.

Rick Maher:     21:16   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       21:17   That's all based, again, back on how our Carnegie unit is-

Rick Maher:     21:21   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       21:21   Distributed across the time period of a semester. That's ... all that's got to be redone.

Rick Maher:     21:28   Yeah. There's ... there is a need for disruption and it sounds like there's some people, including you, that are out there trying to start to rattle some cages. That's hopeful. I've got to get you to talking a little bit about work and learn. We've been touching around that here and you've been getting close to that subject, but I want to drill down just a little bit. You have earned, really, a national reputation at Harper for your work with apprenticeship.

Ken Ender:       21:59   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rick Maher:     22:00   I know the program is growing and it's been touted as a model for others to follow. I've been watching you from afar. I know when you started it and I've seen it growing. Can you offer some tips here to our listeners who want to add apprenticeship to their program? It's in the national dialogue now. Of course, it's a major initiative from the White House this year. What are you doing to be successful and how should our listeners start? What advice can you give people Ken?

Ken Ender:       22:30   Well, I think that some of our listeners may need to unlearn what they think they already know about apprenticeships and that's that apprenticeships are only destined for trade ... skilled trade workers.

Rick Maher:     22:43   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       22:43   We've demonstrated through our program that that is ... that's no longer true. We have more apprenticeship programs now and non-skilled labor, think your traditional carpenter, plumber, whatever. We're now in eight different employment sectors with our apprenticeship program.

Rick Maher:     23:02   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       23:03   The biggest one is insurance, of all things. I would think the first thing we need to do is really try to rethink the notion that labor-oriented and what formally are professional jobs all can fall into the category of learn and earn. Second, I would suggest picking an industry that you want to really be good at. We picked insurance to start with and we really learned about how to do apprenticeships through the lens of our apprenticeship program in insurance. Then we were able to get into ... like I said, we're now eight different employment sectors with our programs.

Ken Ender:       23:40   Find good industry partners that you can build your first program with and then build a program you can replicate in other sectors, basically. Then I think the third thing is find our allies. I know in our college we're hosting a conference. We were very fortunate to be able to receive a grant from a local foundation that enabled us to do a registration-free conference for two days on our campus in October. We've got 170 individuals, 132 different institutions all coming to experience a two-day technical workshop for how to build an apprenticeship program. I would say find allies that have done this, and you'll find folks at Harper College and others throughout the country that want to really believe in the program, understand it-

Rick Maher:     24:30   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       24:30   Needs to get to a scale that we're nowhere near and need other partners to make that happen.

Rick Maher:     24:35   Yeah. That's great. I love your first tip. I've seen it firsthand. As a matter of fact, was involved in one of the early meetings on the insurance industry in the Chicago region. I think what made them ... that important was there was industry that, if you will, opted in, Ken. They had as much energy for the initiative as anybody else did. They wanted to be involved. They weren't being dragged to the table. They needed help and they wanted to be engaged. That, to me, is a good sign. That starts you off on the right foot, right-

Ken Ender:       25:08   Absolutely.

Rick Maher:     25:09   When you get the right partners.

Ken Ender:       25:10   Absolutely.

Rick Maher:     25:11   Yep. Ken, we could continue for hours. I always love talking to you, but I promised you I wasn't going to do that to you this time. We've talked about big issues, from the “commun-iversity” concept to expanded apprenticeships, to lifelong learning and every ... and breaking up the Carnegie unit and everything in between. Most of those things are probably not in the control of our listeners, but you're talking now to educational and workforce system leaders. If you could give these folks, what are the three things, maybe, they can take away from this and they can start doing right now, today, maybe to align themselves and their organizations to a future system that we're trying to, you think, achieve in this country?

Ken Ender:       25:56   That's a great, great question. Let me give you a couple.

Rick Maher:     26:02   Okay.

Ken Ender:       26:03   The first one might sound a little off, but I think you know me well enough to know this is probably where I'd start with. I think the first thing our listeners should do is take a good, hard look at themselves and their assumptions about the future with respect to who needs what, when, and where.

Rick Maher:     26:22   Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ken Ender:       26:23   I truly believe there's not enough awareness in our country and not enough concern in our country about the need for so many millions of Americans to somehow find their way into a post-secondary credential that aligns with the ... with labor that folks want to hire.

Rick Maher:     26:48   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       26:49   We just ... we ... I ... it's ... to me, it's so alarming. It drives my passion about this to know that we've got to just find a way to get much larger as quickly as we can.

Rick Maher:     27:01   Right.

Ken Ender:       27:01   So take that look, see what your personal theory is about all that and whether ... I hope it shakes folks up, so they just find renewed passion. Second, I would learn everything I could about collective impact strategy. I absolutely believe that there are sufficient resources in the system to support a lot of what we want to do. I also just believe we're just terribly inefficient at how we organize those resources-

Rick Maher:     27:28   No doubt.

Ken Ender:       27:28   And connect those resources.

Rick Maher:     27:29   Yep.

Ken Ender:       27:30   The extent that we can all become experts in that connective ... connecting work, I think, all the better. Then, third, I'd find a partner.

Rick Maher:     27:40   Yeah.

Ken Ender:       27:41   I would decide, if I'm a college leader, I'd ... if I'm a baccalaureate leader, I'd find a community college that I'm going to be connected to the hip with and I'd connect that to an industry partner that we all three could serve. I would look to my own ... if I'm in charge of my local workforce board, I would decide, "Okay. I'm going to focus on a couple sectors and a couple educational providers and together we're going to collectively make an impact in that area." Just start something. Start something.

Rick Maher:     28:11   Yep.

Ken Ender:       28:11   Know that whatever you start, you have to staff. You've got to ... you just can't go to the meeting. You've got to figure out a way to get it done.

Rick Maher:     28:18   Yep. I love it, Ken. If people follow that advice, study and find their passion and know that ... I always tell people, "If you called yourself an educator or a workforce system leader, then you came to the right time and place because we need you now." It's a significant [crosstalk 00:28:36].

Ken Ender:       28:36   Oh, this is a great time to be in leadership position-

Rick Maher:     28:38   Yep.

Ken Ender:       28:39   In this work. It ... because now, more than ever, folks are ready for things they would've never been ready for before-

Rick Maher:     28:47   Yeah.

Ken Ender:      28:47   Because we've got to do something different.

Rick Maher:     28:49   Yep. I love it, Ken. I knew you were going to call on us to shake the tree and that's why I was so pleased to have you here. Thanks again for your time today. If our listeners want to know more about what you're doing or if they want to get connected to you, Ken, where would they find you? How should they get connected?

Ken Ender:       29:10   Easy,

Rick Maher:     29:13   There you go, man. Well, expect a few new friends, my friend. I imagine you will get some connections out of this-

Ken Ender:       29:21   Well-

Rick Maher:     29:21   Again, Ken, thank you much. It's always my pleasure to have the chance to chat and explore with you.

Ken Ender:       29:28   I'm honored to do it. Thanks so much for thinking of me.

Rick Maher:     29:31   My pleasure. Guys, until next time at Talent Talks, this is Rick Maher thanking you for listening and reminding you that in Talent Talks we hope to explore and form and inspire you because we are all actors in a global war for talent, one where talent is seen as the new global currency. Frankly, you are America's talent investment bankers. We hope you'll ... we've inspired you to take a risk, make a difference, form that partnership Ken talked about. We hope you'll dare to be great. Break something and make it better. Try, fail, but fail fast and try again. Thanks again for listening and have a great day. We'll see you next month on Talent Talks.

Announcer:      30:14   Thank you for listening to Talent Talks, presented by Maher & Maher and Impact International. For more information on what is being done to position America's workers, employers, and communities for future prosperity, sign up for our newsletter at mahernet. com/talenttalks. That's

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